The absolutely outrageous thing is that apparently they are instructed to ignore all other evidence of citizenship if that app says someone is not a citizen. So even if you have your birth certificate ready, doesn't matter.
This is completely lawless.
From the article:
> He also said “ICE officials have told us that an apparent biometric match by Mobile Fortify is a ‘definitive’ determination of a person’s status and that an ICE officer may ignore evidence of American citizenship—including a birth certificate—if the app says the person is an alien.
I don't think it's a coincidence that identity masking of deputies starts happening the moment that deputies start doing illegal things. They are jumping to the very end of "what can we do if we remove every means of accountability, present or future?"
Biometrics are more protected in IL than an other states as well. Facebook settled a big lawsuit just for automatically tagging people (actually the suit was about storing the biometric face data at all without consent)
They are. BIPA is top rate. I looked at the statute, which excludes Illinois state and local government entities, but does not talk of federal bodies. I don't know enough about the supremacy of federal statutes to know how that works, and most discussions note that the statute excludes "the government" which is not totally accurate.
Legal action against this is going to be a tough, possibly unfeasable battle.
Whatever the laws are, they probably contain exceptions for the use of biometrics for law enforcement purposes.
In terms of court precedent, biometrics are not protected by the 4th amendment, because your face is not considered a secret that the government could compel you to reveal.
The supreme court has effectively removed all of the possible mechanisms to sue ICE or DHS and hold them accountable, with the sole exception of having the DOJ prosecute them on your behalf, which is of course never going to happen. The only remaining possibility to hold them accountable for crimes appears to be within the states judicial systems- but most are currently setup to not allow this, deferring to the federal mechanisms which only very recently stopped existing.
Question for a future (2026?) dystopia: if our faces aren't secret or private for 4A/5A purposes, can we start making them secret/private by walking around in public with a balaclava?
The Netherlands has a law that makes it illegal to cover your face. Officially this is to help the police but its also a great tool against religion. Constitution>god
Also, this app uses photos from a combination of government databases, but there are millions of citizens without photo ID who won't show up in any of them.
My friend (who has an identical twin) was joking about scanning himself into Cameo mode on Sora and making some goofy videos and saying they were his brother.
I think the scientific consensus is that they are NOT unique. I seem to recall there’s something like a one in five million chance of collision. (Recalling from memory so please verify, I recall thinking that in a large city there’s likely to be another person who’s fingerprints could be mistaken for yours)
> The irony of doing this while covering their own faces
It’s best to understand that fascists see hypocrisy
as a virtue. It’s how they signal that the things
they are doing to people were never meant to be
equally applied.
It’s not an inconsistency. It’s very consistent
to the only true fascist value, which is domination.
It’s very important to understand, fascists don’t
just see hypocrisy as a necessary evil or
an unintended side-effect.
It’s the purpose. The ability to enjoy yourself
the thing you’re able to deny others, because
you dominate, is the whole point.
For fascists, hypocrisy is a great virtue—the greatest.
Or, put more succinctly, Wilhoit’s Law (which is framed as about “conservatism” rather than “fascism”, but the latter can be viewed as, within the context of the description, a complex of ideas which includes the former as its central element):
Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.
> Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.
While pithy, public intellectual/academic conservatives like David Frum and Tom Nichols would disagree, and say the rule of law should apply equally to everyone.
Frum (IIRC, though it may have been Applebaum) wrote articles years ago that the direction of the GOP was going was similar to that of Hungary: using public office to enrich family and friends and not prosecute the same when they broke the law. There have been numerous conservatives aghast at what the GOP was becoming / has now become, and were ringing the alarm for years.
This. There's exactly nothing conservative about MAGA. Quite the opposite, it's overtly and proudly radical and extremist, and views actual conservative values with as much contempt as it views actual liberal values.
> If conservatives become convinced that they can not win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. The will reject democracy.
This is from David Frum, a conservative himself:
> Maybe you do not care much about the future of the Republican Party. You should. Conservatives will always be with us. If conservatives become convinced that they can not win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. The will reject democracy.
Even leftist Latin American politicians use ample doses of hypocrisy. They demonize the rich, and promote austerity, while them, their family, and friends/conspirators enjoy a subsidized life of luxuries.
Not all of them are fascists, or conservatives, but they're world-class hypocrites.
That conservatism (including fascism) foundationally rests on something that involves explicitly unequal standards does not mean that every hypocrite is a conservative, correct. (p implies q) does not imply (q iimplies p).
Also, though, a lot of groups with some degree of leftist rhetoric are substantially right-wing hierarchy-promoting groups (even promoting fascist-style leader-centric structures) that are simply trying to replace one heirarchy with another rather than eliminate hierarchy, a tradition of deceptive rhetorical positioning which has included fascists as far back as the early days of the National Socialist German Workers Party.
People voted for a bait and switch. Nobody wanted to destroy the rule of law. Nobody wants corruption (except the corrupt). The farmers didn’t vote for a trade war destroying their livelihoods. I don’t think people wanted a militarized force accountable to no one attacking their own communities.
If we give them room to say “this isn’t what wanted” we give them room to say “next time I want something different.”
The only way to preserve democracy is to preserve our ability to say “regardless of how the last election went, I want something different next time”
What's ironic about it? That's like saying it's ironic for soldiers to fire their guns while in a trench. They're doing things unto others that they would not have done unto them.
It’s ironic that it’s brave to uncover your face, it’s brave to verify your identity, but these officers’ policy actively avoids the brave choice. Then, we’re supposed to accept that they’re operating in war zones like Portland.
That's fine, as long as they aren't making anyone remove face coverings. People are allowed to cover their faces in public places. And we can't tell from this biased article whether they had probable cause to stop anyone that they did.
What they have said previously is that they consider someone looking hispanic as probable cause. I don't see any reason to give them the benefit of the doubt here.
Seems like this would be to collect faces of what they consider "dissedents" rather than verify citizenship which can be done much more accurately through a mobile fingerprint reader.
Then again, who needs accuracy when you dissapear people without a warrant.
In half an hour, Gregory Bovino, who heads some ICE operation in Chicago, is supposed to appear before a Federal judge to be questioned on what ICE did to whom today. Let's see if he shows up.
I assume the agents are using their own phones. One of their phones is going to be left in a bar and end up on eBay at some point and then the APK can be extracted at least.
Don’t fall for the lie that this is at all about illegal immigration- that is just an excuse for what has become state sponsored KKK style racial terrorism operating completely outside the law. Videos all over the Internet show them violently attacking and terrorizing hispanic looking people with no concern for if they are citizens or not. At the Wilder raid in Idaho they were shooting children with rubber bullets, and zip tying them to watch as they brutally beat their (mostly US citizen) parents in front of them. At the same time you have the administration actively encouraging white immigration from South Africa, while firing all federal immigration judges that were still willing to hear valid asylum claims from brown skinned people.
I want my country, freedom, and civil rights back.
In Wolfenstein, the main character shot Nazi soldiers. It was made back when we had shared societal values like fascism is bad. Today, such a game would be called a product of tHe rAdIcAl lEfT.
I stopped hearing claims that it was about illegal immigration almost instantly after the debate where he claimed “they’re eating the dogs, they’re eating the cats, they’re eating the pets of the people that live there.” It was eerie.
Very much so. There's multiple videos of them standing in Walmart parking lots and as shoppers walk out with their carts, anyone vaguely Hispanic is being questioned. "Where were you born? Are you American?"
Probable cause is out the window. This is, firsthand, Steven Millers White America policy starting to take effect.
Biden's CBP goons stripped me naked, imprisoned me, ran up an ER bill for which I'm still being chased for by debt collectors, and tranported me by prisoner van all over the state, while they were enforcing Biden's (and now continue with Trump) insane war on drugs. I did not have drugs, I am not involved with drugs.
Of course nothing was found, and the allegation was hearsay by an HSI detective that some unnamed dog alerted to an unnamed officer, neither of which I have any idea what they were even referencing.
Yes, ICE has been a bad actor since the day it was created, which is why "shutdown ICE" has been a thing on the left for a while now. But it's now operating as the private military of Donald Trump and the executive branch on a scale never before seen in America. Its upcoming budget is greater than every other federal law enforcement agency combined. We see videos every day of their gleeful assaults on anyone they like, while their leadership has explicitly stated there will be no repercussions, and that they should be as abusive as they want.
What do the 9/11 terrorists have to do with the US federal government using federal police to enforce immigration law largely against illegal immigrants from Latin America, decades later? Osama bin Laden had a fairly specific immediate poltical goal, resisting US military influence in Muslim countries and US support of Israel. His broader goals involved revolutionary Islamic fundamentalism in the Muslim countries of the middle east. None of this was related to Latin American immigration to the US, legal or otherwise.
> What do the 9/11 terrorists have to do with the US federal government using federal police to enforce immigration law largely against illegal immigrants from Latin America, decades later?
The centralized security apparatus in the Department of Homeland Security being leverage here exists entirely as a result of the reaction to 9/11.
I wasn't aware that Trump coordinated 9/11 with Bin Laden (through the Saudis?), but at this point it wouldn't really surprise me. (tongue in cheek, of course)
But please let's stop framing recent developments as if they are merely continuations of existing trends. The surveillance state and federal "law" enforcement were definitely out of control well before Trump, and both authoritarian parties share responsibility for that. But it hadn't been being used to launch a frontal assault on domestic civil society. Responsibility for that rests solely on Trump (and his enablers/supporters).
It is absolutely insane that the party who tried on the Libertarian mask less than 20 years ago and rode high on a wave of "don't tread on me" individual liberty is now suddenly ok with masked thugs scanning everyone's faces for their master database of enemies of the state.
It makes more sense when you frame it as "party of shameless self interest and racial stratification acts in shameless self interest while racially stratifying". You can draw a straight line back to even before the US civil war of the anti-federalists using their station to undermine the republic and liberties it stands for.
You can expect the party to vote along party lines. The real funny one here is all the Rogan libertarians who made a conscious choice to vote for this.
The generous part of me says this is an example of "you become what you hate". The ungenerous part of me says that all their talk about freedom, liberty, state's rights, etc., has always been a lie.
It's not insane when you recognize the animus behind both is white nationalism and racism. Tea Party was a response to Obama being President, not so much the taxes as they claim.
Actually I was very active in criticizing both the Obama and Biden administrations, attending town halls, etc. to criticize their blaming of problems on immigrants. However what they were doing was literally enforcing the immigration laws as they were. That should not in any way be confused with the brutality, cruelty, sadism, criminality, and scale of what is happening now- which has nothing to do with immigration, which was the point of my comment.
Parent comment flagged and removed, but it was basically "Why didn't you complain in the past?".
This is a known tactic of propagandists, implying that you have no right to complain if you didn't complain in the past. Anyone using this method is immediately suspect of not seeking honest discussion. Also, it doesn't work outside of a few social networks, stop trying it everywhere.
> that is just an excuse for what has become state sponsored KKK style racial terrorism
This sounds like some nonsense white people say to defend their own choices and exclusive clubs. Black Americans have always been under this level of surveillance, and you couldn't pry stop-and-frisk from Democrats. They love it. I've had guns drawn on me for walking down the street at least four times in my life, and at least fifteen times have been searched while multiple cop cars pulled in to surround me. Once, in Arkansas, they all pulled in around me while I was walking down the street with white friends, and their harassment of me was so drawn out and boring that my white friends just left. The cops didn't even look over at them while they left; they weren't interesting.
They don't remember when they were calling Giuliani America's mayor; I do, and I remember it was because he was mean to black people. They don't remember Laquan MacDonald; I do, and I see how that wasn't career ending.
So what you mean is that they're harassing people who are obviously immigrants (or at least English is obviously their second language), and trying to find out if they're legal immigrants. If you mean that, just say it and stop bringing black people into it. The KKK isn't about them. It would be nice if everyone would stop characterizing their problems as them being like black people's problems. They just got here, they're nothing like us. America doesn't even think it owes us anything for centuries of birth to death slavery, it certainly doesn't owe them anything. They don't even like us, they're statistically more racist than the natives (who also don't like us.) They only want to be us when they think they can get something out of it.
Here's the question: pretend that a majority of people want illegal immigrants (not just criminal illegal immigrants, like Trump propaganda makes them all out to be) deported, and that majorities consistently say that in polls, and that they voted for a presidential candidate who has always clearly advocated for that.
How exactly can they do it if every Democratic-run state and city refuses to comply? How can the democratic will of citizens be carried out? If we're not going to do democracy anymore, do we have a country at all? What benefit is there to citizenship? An illegal immigrant erases their past, how can a citizen do the same? Why can't citizens drive, work, get loans from banks, or even in extreme cases vote and hold office without identifying themselves?
If you're going to answer all these questions with "Screw you!" do you see how you're ushering in a police state with popular support? How it's inevitable? And they'll just take off and go home, while we have to live in it because we don't have anywhere else to go.
Western elites are stupider than they have ever been. They're just going to usher in nativist demagogues who will administer the totalitarian states they've built, and suffer no consequences. They'll be richer than they ever were, and having stupid taste arguments about their consumption while what they've ushered in is immiserating the vast majority of people. Feudalism is coming, and the landlords and their children are cosplaying as workers.
“How exactly can they do it if every Democratic-run state and city refuses to comply? How can the democratic will of citizens be carried out?”
If a candidate makes campaign promises that do not work in the framework of our constitution or civil rights that is the candidates problem to figure out, you don’t get to throw away those things because your side won and they make your job hard, that is not how this is supposed to work.
What I wrote isn’t about democrats vs republicans- it’s about calling out terrorism from white supremacists for what it is- the fact that plenty of democrats are also extremely racist does not change what is actually happening here. They are not selective in only targeting black people- they have expanded that to include middle eastern, hispanic, and LGTBQ people simply because more of them are now visible in this country, with no reduction in their hatred and targeting of black people. We’re talking about the same groups of people doing the same things, now with a BUFF and a tactical vest instead of a white hood. Trump was raised in a KKK household, his dad was arrested at a KKK rally, and both he and his dad were sued and lost for racial discrimination in housing against black people and then ignored the rulings and continued the discrimination. He launched his political career by stoking hatred for a black president. His core supporters are a group of people that never accepted that they lost the civil war, and have been able to continually derail the reconstruction and the civil rights movement to this day. They are putting back up confederate pro slavery statues, and flying confederate flags. The KKK itself is mostly organizationally defunct, but these people are not simply “like the KKK,” they are literally the same people. However, for the first time in US history, they now have essentially complete control over the federal government.
Wow this is going downhill fast. I don't have access to the article but I'm assuming this is what Palantir is all about right? Or are we not quite there yet, is this the CBP face scanning they have at border crossings too?
I wonder if this is a portend to an American social credit score, like where China uses facial recognition to identify criminals at concerts[1], and jaywalkers, etc. which severely impacts a person's ability to get a job, housing, etc.
I can't help but assume this is already being used at retail establishments, but now it could be tied into law enforcement databases, and .. communicate..
Those systems depend on enforcement. If a private system keeps score and gate keeps you usually have alternatives (utilities excluded), if it’s the gov and they decide to enforce it, then things get dire…
But what if Target security cooperates with the government, and they share capabilities, so that a facial recognition inside of a Target location would notify law enforcement who also has an interest in that person? In such a scenario.. Target would freely give its data but not necessarily acting an agent of the government.
People need to work to reverse the Bush and Obama initiated and then continued practice (setting precedent) of bypassing direct surveillance by buying data from data brokers. The Biden and Trump admins just continue this practice. That’s where people need to reverse the practice. I mean you had the FBI and probably others wiretapping Congress folks so… it’s like they don’t care.
Or we need to focus on making data brokers illegal, period. Taking a page from the GDPR would be a good start. As long as the surveillance databases continue to exist, they will be juicy targets for anyone attracted to the power. And not just for the de jure government, but also plenty of "private" businesses that adopt them nearly in lockstep. If you get blackballed in the one used by say Target, it's not like Walmart is going to make it a point of competition to serve the small fraction of people who would be good customers but for getting tripped up by Target. Rather they will all use the same databases, shutting you off from most commerce. That's effectively creating a de facto government, independent of any de jure government adoption.
"American" "social" credit scores were instituted long ago. Distracting from this was the whole reason the media added the word "social" to the term - to other the idea as something that happens over there, never here.
That was the carrot. This new development is the stick.
Life in the US is turning like one of its sci-fi movies. Now it's playing the first half where the bad suppress the good, before the reverse will happen for a happy ending.
By saying such I might come up as part of The Resistance in the future, like German people that resisted the Nazis are considered heroes after the war.
When I saw them do iris scanning during Iraq War I instantly knew that was coming to US police sooner or later, I guess this is the new easier method
The crazy thing is though these people don't even have an identifying badge number and their license plates are often fake, zero repercussions for anything and they know it
Imagine by 2028 what's going down if this is still the first year
My understanding is that the only thing keeping this from happening is that the data is far more valuable for traffic monitoring than law enforcement. As a trivial example, these cameras can already determine is a vehicle is speeding based on its number plate sightings between any two cameras. They can hence start issuing tickets, no radar or police needed.
However, they've not gone down this path because they are (rightfully) concerned that there would be an instantaneous and severe backlash that could lead to those cameras being banned entirely, which would cripple traffic control.
And you do have the right to contest the ticket in court, before a judge.
Unless you have the free time, and some evidence that doesn't involve the fringe around the courtroom's flag, you're probably better off just paying the ticket.
If only it was this bad. REAL ID only proves you were at one point allowed to be here. It doesn't prove you're allowed to be here right now (which can change arbitrarily and at any time apparently)
Can you go into any detail on what technologies you used? Is there enough differentiating data in their attire to actually match agents? None of them are showing their faces so I wonder how many false positives would occur
I'm using a YOLO-WORLD-XL object detection model. Lets me detect objects using text. This is the initial filter that scans for agents - once those are detected and outlined with bounding boxes the entire image and each cropped bounding box are then sent to chatgpt to confirm if the image looks legit. Once image passes those checks - I create image embeddings of each agent using CLIP and those are stored in a vector DB, and each agent is then compared to the DB and matched.
The matching system isn't perfect - but I think good enough to get the point across and can be easily tuned with more data! Happy to take suggestions here - I just spun this up over the weekend
Ignore them? Operate outside of US reach. The tubes are global.
EDIT: Legally, you have no right to privacy in public, if your photo is captured in public (US centric), broadly speaking. You have the right to record law enforcement officers exercising their official duties in public.
So avoid being subject to the US jurisdiction, if applicable. Do not store data or operate the system from within the US, or any country within US reach.
I am struggling a bit personally with how to grapple with the fact that the career I have chosen has ended up bolstering all the horrible inclinations of those in power. I think we need some kind of tech workers collective and some version of the hippocratic oath to start pushing back against this bullshit.
I think a lot of tech needs to go through that struggle.
From the perspective of a long career in infosec, what’s occurring now was enabled a longtime ago by broad-based industry consensus. Concerns then, which == awful stuff occurring now, were robustly dismissed by many many many devs with s/strong viewpoints/paychecks.
The only silver lining I can see is we’re taking our medicine now, but there’s a lot more to go through still, on the back of many significant tech capabilities.
For example, Flock was kept out of many cities, but Amazon was not, Flock just signed a data sharing deal with Ring. That’s a no-nonsense, nationwide, warrantless vehicular and pedestrian tracking network mechanism.
Not great, Bob! But RSUs for building it all sure was great.
It's true now as in the past. Technology or science aren't inherently good or bad, just a matter of how you use it. Personally I enjoyed much more working on medical devices at a university than typical commercial software, simply because there's an ethical component to that software that was quite fulfilling.
How certain are we that the photos being taken are going to a Palantir database?
Asking because the FBI has been assembling biometrics databases since the mid-20th century and providing access to other law enforcement agencies since the 1990s.
Could we please not criticize the administration on Hacker News? Hacker News is not the place for ideological criticism of the surveillance state. Hacker News is meant to be a safe space for the hacker ethos of maximizing money, and this administration has been good for Silicon Valley, as judged by our leaders such as Elon Musk, Peter Thiel, and Marc Andreessen.
Regarding the specific issue of using facial recognition apps to identify criminals, and using those apps as justification for detention/arrest - has this ever been challenged in court? I know there's caselaw that supports using cameras in public, but I'm wondering about the apps that are used to "recognize", and then the decision to detain/arrest based on those apps. If I'm a lawyer challenging this, I wanna see the source code for the app; I want verification that the app is working as it's intended, the false positive/negative rate, and that there's no way for someone to "put their thumb on the scale" to get a desired outcome, etc. I'm also gonna want access to the phone that was used to take the picture(s).
First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me
I wonder why people downvote. Many western countries now couldn't be more obviously fascist. State responsibilities are being offloaded to multinational corporations, de facto private policing is around the corner, surveillance (digital ID tracking your movements and what you talk about, chat controls and whatnot). It's creeping in and people pretend it's not happening.
I’ve gone from thinking people are oblivious to thinking that people are willing to sacrifice a lot (democracy, individual liberties, food safety, etc.) out of fear, selfishness, and greed. It is surprising with the HN crowd though given how much less innovation and entrepreneurship there is under fascism.
I mean they are flashbanging houses, teargassing residential neighborhoods, dragging parents away from their screaming children outside of elementary schools, shooting people, all in chicago right now. The things you mention were serious problems we needed to address 5, 10, 20 years ago. We did not and now we have a very different problem to solve. We will still have to address those things but we have to deal with this first.
All, I recommend you familiarize yourself with relevant state laws regarding your protections when assisting folks that are in immediate danger, e.g.:
https://oregon.public.law/statutes/ors_161.200
I'm not a lawyer. So, if you have counsel on retainer and can stomach the bill, get clarity there first. But know that many states have such protections on the books.
The veil of immunity for DHS agents may soon be pierced. Apathy and ignorance are no longer acceptable for this situation.
You can be arrested and charged with a federal criminal law, 18 USC 111 "assaulting, resisting, or impeding certain officers or employees." The judge wont entertain your arguments about state law.
Fines and up to 8 years in a federal prison, 20 years if you use a deadly or dangerous weapon or actually inflict injury. You can get up to 15% off for good behavior, there is no parole.
One on hand, I'd really love to punch a neo-nazi to interrupt them disappearing people to concentration camps. On the other, ooooh scary federal charges.
Sort of. You have to look up if your state has "necessity/choice-of-evils” defense and the standard defense-of-others rule - and what scopes it has.
I'll tell you this much, most judges will regard a circumstance for you to exert force against a peace officer - seeming or actual - as an extralegal action, and will very rarely affirm it as a protected action from the books. And even if you beat such a case, it ruins your life in the process. Their qualified immunity will remain longer than you can remain solvent.
They would call and say what? "Go home you crazy weaponized narcissist, you're drunk on power and delusions of techo authoritarianism." If you're challenging someone who can hurt you, you should not approach until you are highly confident you are going to win, whatever that looks like.
I hope the folks mentioned are, and continue to remain, somewhere safe while this plays out.
Bovino says they do profile people on how they look:
> “Then, obviously, the particular characteristics of an individual, how they look. How do they look compared to, say, you?” he said to the reporter, a tall, middle-aged man of Anglo descent.
Absolutely. I'm a legal immigrant, but delays in processing and other things when I had to adjust status after divorcing from my US citizen wife (I moved here on a K-1 fiance visa) had me involving an immigration attorney, who made the comment, "I hate saying this, but it's true. You're the right color, and with where you're coming from (Australia), nobody cares about checking up on you."
> “Then, obviously, the particular characteristics of an individual, how they look. How do they look compared to, say, you?” he said to the reporter, a tall, middle-aged man of Anglo descent.
In those cases yes, but ICE is disappearing people who have entered legally and are awaiting a CIVIL immigration hearing on status changes, etc. The cases you reference are a small minority of those being detained and deported.
75% of ICE detainees have no criminal convictions per ICEs own stats, however they conflate "immigration offenses" like filing errors with illegal entry so its impossible to tell from their own statistics to answer your question.
I might also add that, like it or not, asylum claims are a positive defense to illegal entry under US law and you can ONLY claim asylum upon US soil.
ICE has extreme arrest quotas now and are routinely exceeding their authority and violating the due process rights of of immigrants in thr US to meet those quotas.
> 75% of ICE detainees have no criminal convictions
1. Can you cite this?
2. I assume you mean, for things other than the putative illegal entry itself. Of course, that would still have to be proven, but it is still potentially a criminal matter. Fining people who are legally not entitled to be in the country, does not remedy the fact of them being in the country without legal entitlement.
> however they conflate "immigration offenses" like filing errors with illegal entry
How is this a conflation?
> I work in immigration law and can tell you that nearly all of the people we represent
The selection bias is clear; they're hiring legal representation because they have a case (and because they can afford to).
> ICE has extreme arrest quotas
Can you evidence this?
> violating the due process rights of of immigrants in thr US
What exactly do you consider that these rights consist of, and how are they being violated? Can you evidence this?
It is not a lie, immigration, is primarily a civil issue with civil enforcement. You don't get a lawyer, you don't get your case heard in Title III courts. There are a few things that are capital C crimes related to immigration, but the bulk of the current enforcement is related it civil immigration matters.
Goalpost shifting. Now it is "primarily" a civil issue you say.
Yet the relevant part of it here is the crimes: people illegally entering or illegally overstaying, which are crimes. Trying to distract from that by talking something else is disingenuous.
Don't think this meets either the common or legal definition of "invasion"
>you decided it was "racist" and threw a fit every time anyone suggested it was a problem.
I decided nothing, buddy.
>If you hadn't let it become an issue,
Interesting, because the last time it was about to be taken up by congress, DJT said not to do anything about it, for political advantage. Neither side has its hands clean here.
> it wouldn't require this response.
This is the only possible response? How unimaginitive.
It meets the common definition ie. the definition.
You is a plural pronoun.
I don't care at all what Donald Trump thinks about it or does or says. It is irrelevant to the issue at hand: should the law be enforced even if doing so is ugly? Yes.
I can't help but blame this on the performative lack of cooperation of every Democratic Party run city and state on illegal immigration (but mostly, the wealthy constituency that supports it.) I wish I could blame the administration actually doing it, but the fact is that both parties would happily usher in this level of surveillance, and Democrats are handing Republicans an excuse to do it over a nonsense issue that didn't exist for them before they were wielding it against Trump during his first term.
If anything, this is a cooperation between the two most powerful and destructive political parties on the planet to turn the US into a police state trying to conquer the planet.
There is no right for illegal immigrants to stay in the US, it hurts working people, and the rights that are being claimed by illegal immigrants are real but purely being used in a dilatory manner. The problem has also been exacerbated in a predictable manner by bipartisan attacks on their home countries, followed by legal encouragement for them to come here.
Right now, Trump is driving more Venezuelans to the US while pretending that he's trying to keep them away, by keeping the US acting as a thief in Venezuela. War for theft. They'll be here just in time for the Democrats to throw the doors open again, we'll have all the cheap, leverage-less labor back, and now facial recognition cameras everywhere. Bipartisanship!
'Katz v. United States' was quite clear - you have no expectation of privacy in public. Anyone may photograph you and use said photos. Do I like it? No. But that is the current caselaw in USA.
"What a person knowingly exposes to the public [...] is not a subject of Fourth Amendment protection." - Justice Potter in 'Katz v. United States'
Frustratingly, the BIPA might exclude these offensive actions. It was really designed to protect customers from bad businesses. This sort of action probably didn't factor into it.
Minors don't have biometrics. They are not obligated to have any sort of ID, especially citizens. What would scanning biometrics do? It's absolutely useless and ICE would know this.
This is guaranteed to be an entirely made-up situation.
Also, what in the fuck would CBP be doing in Chicago? It's a complete lie.
Minors do, in fact, have biometrics. Identification with them may be less reliable for some kinds of biometrics, but... reliability isn’t a hallmark of the current regimes “immigration enforcement” mechanisms.
> They are not obligated to have any sort of ID, especially citizens.
This is also true of adults, who are not obligated to have or carry ID if they are citizens (immigrants, both minors and adults, are a different story, are required to have ID, and are required to have biometrics taken unless they are under 14.)
Obviously, it can’t rule out citizens (though it could compare to databases available to the feds, which I would assume state ID databases are), since not all citizens will have biometrics of any kind, or even ID photos on file, but if they have presumed that the targets are immigrants, then scanning can be used to compare to records of documented immigrants, reinforcing (note I do not say justiying) the conclusion tha they are illegally present if it fails to match.
They can also be used to build intelligence databases of contacts even if not used to support immediate detention.
> Also, what in the fuck would CBP be doing in Chicago?
CBP, and more specifically Border Patrol, the main enforcement agency within CBP, is everywhere the Administration’s immhration crackdown is beig executed, and much of the most violent “immigration enforcement” attributed to “ICE” is actually Border Patrol, not ICE.
What are you talking about? CBP has been in Illinois for weeks. Greg Bovino, their commander, has been hauled before a judge this week to testify about how CBP (and he, personally) have violated the judge's TRO against unjustified use of tear gas [0].
This is very basic factual stuff that's in the news every day. How do you not know this is going on?
Do people think they are clever and can have defacto open borders? Maybe stop the goon squads and enforce at the employer level though it would probably work too well…
Most of these people have SSNs and work permits. We let them in and let them work legally and now have suddenly changed our collective mind and are violently letting them know. It's absurd.
https://archive.is/UReW9
The absolutely outrageous thing is that apparently they are instructed to ignore all other evidence of citizenship if that app says someone is not a citizen. So even if you have your birth certificate ready, doesn't matter.
This is completely lawless.
From the article:
> He also said “ICE officials have told us that an apparent biometric match by Mobile Fortify is a ‘definitive’ determination of a person’s status and that an ICE officer may ignore evidence of American citizenship—including a birth certificate—if the app says the person is an alien.
I don't think it's a coincidence that identity masking of deputies starts happening the moment that deputies start doing illegal things. They are jumping to the very end of "what can we do if we remove every means of accountability, present or future?"
I think ICE is in fact setup / groomed to be ... lawless. Just thugs for the federal government.
Biometrics are more protected in IL than an other states as well. Facebook settled a big lawsuit just for automatically tagging people (actually the suit was about storing the biometric face data at all without consent)
They are. BIPA is top rate. I looked at the statute, which excludes Illinois state and local government entities, but does not talk of federal bodies. I don't know enough about the supremacy of federal statutes to know how that works, and most discussions note that the statute excludes "the government" which is not totally accurate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biometric_Information_Privacy_...
Legal action against this is going to be a tough, possibly unfeasable battle.
Whatever the laws are, they probably contain exceptions for the use of biometrics for law enforcement purposes.
In terms of court precedent, biometrics are not protected by the 4th amendment, because your face is not considered a secret that the government could compel you to reveal.
The supreme court has effectively removed all of the possible mechanisms to sue ICE or DHS and hold them accountable, with the sole exception of having the DOJ prosecute them on your behalf, which is of course never going to happen. The only remaining possibility to hold them accountable for crimes appears to be within the states judicial systems- but most are currently setup to not allow this, deferring to the federal mechanisms which only very recently stopped existing.
This Vox article and the podcast with the same name does a good job of explaining how it is now effectively impossible to hold ICE accountable to the law: https://www.vox.com/politics/464962/supreme-court-ice-no-law
Question for a future (2026?) dystopia: if our faces aren't secret or private for 4A/5A purposes, can we start making them secret/private by walking around in public with a balaclava?
New norms go both ways.
The Netherlands has a law that makes it illegal to cover your face. Officially this is to help the police but its also a great tool against religion. Constitution>god
At this point, the US is a failed democracy and a facist state. I would definitely advice people from other countries to leave ASAP.
The facist American government is even sending their dissident citizens to detention camps in Africa .
Good luck to Americans that cannot go somewhere else.
People can look identical, that's the reason we started using finger prints. Faces are not unique.
Also, this app uses photos from a combination of government databases, but there are millions of citizens without photo ID who won't show up in any of them.
Social media datasets are likely in use.
https://www.biometricupdate.com/202509/ice-awards-clearview-...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clearview_AI
My friend (who has an identical twin) was joking about scanning himself into Cameo mode on Sora and making some goofy videos and saying they were his brother.
There is no scientific proof that fingerprints are unique, either. Like a lot of forensic science, it's just accepted wisdom.
I think the scientific consensus is that they are NOT unique. I seem to recall there’s something like a one in five million chance of collision. (Recalling from memory so please verify, I recall thinking that in a large city there’s likely to be another person who’s fingerprints could be mistaken for yours)
> the person is an alien
The dehumanizing language is absolutely disgusting and it's use is an important milestone towards genocide.
This particular word has been in official use for ages. I agree that it's disgusting.
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> This is completely lawless.
They don't give a **.
https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/the-rule-of-law-i...
The irony of doing this while covering their own faces
That's about as ironic as carrying a gun while wearing a bulletproof vest. If the tech exists and works it changes both defense and offense.
> The irony of doing this while covering their own faces
* https://mastodon.social/@JuliusGoat/109551955251655267* Via: https://kottke.org/25/03/for-fascists-hypocrisy-is-a-virtue
Or, put more succinctly, Wilhoit’s Law (which is framed as about “conservatism” rather than “fascism”, but the latter can be viewed as, within the context of the description, a complex of ideas which includes the former as its central element):
Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.
> Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.
While pithy, public intellectual/academic conservatives like David Frum and Tom Nichols would disagree, and say the rule of law should apply equally to everyone.
Frum (IIRC, though it may have been Applebaum) wrote articles years ago that the direction of the GOP was going was similar to that of Hungary: using public office to enrich family and friends and not prosecute the same when they broke the law. There have been numerous conservatives aghast at what the GOP was becoming / has now become, and were ringing the alarm for years.
* https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/04/hu...
This. There's exactly nothing conservative about MAGA. Quite the opposite, it's overtly and proudly radical and extremist, and views actual conservative values with as much contempt as it views actual liberal values.
There's a similar quote that also fits:
> If conservatives become convinced that they can not win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. The will reject democracy.
Another alternative, that any poltical side can use, is to attempt to change the composition of the electorate that votes in the democracy.
> If conservatives become convinced that they can not win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. The will reject democracy.
This is from David Frum, a conservative himself:
> Maybe you do not care much about the future of the Republican Party. You should. Conservatives will always be with us. If conservatives become convinced that they can not win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. The will reject democracy.
* https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/9077312-maybe-you-do-not-ca...
Even leftist Latin American politicians use ample doses of hypocrisy. They demonize the rich, and promote austerity, while them, their family, and friends/conspirators enjoy a subsidized life of luxuries.
Not all of them are fascists, or conservatives, but they're world-class hypocrites.
That conservatism (including fascism) foundationally rests on something that involves explicitly unequal standards does not mean that every hypocrite is a conservative, correct. (p implies q) does not imply (q iimplies p).
Also, though, a lot of groups with some degree of leftist rhetoric are substantially right-wing hierarchy-promoting groups (even promoting fascist-style leader-centric structures) that are simply trying to replace one heirarchy with another rather than eliminate hierarchy, a tradition of deceptive rhetorical positioning which has included fascists as far back as the early days of the National Socialist German Workers Party.
It's not ironic, it's saying "the rules are for you, not for me, fuck you".
People voted for this...some of them three times...
Humans display a reduced set of consistent behavioral phenotypes in dyadic games https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.1600451
People voted for a bait and switch. Nobody wanted to destroy the rule of law. Nobody wants corruption (except the corrupt). The farmers didn’t vote for a trade war destroying their livelihoods. I don’t think people wanted a militarized force accountable to no one attacking their own communities.
If we give them room to say “this isn’t what wanted” we give them room to say “next time I want something different.”
The only way to preserve democracy is to preserve our ability to say “regardless of how the last election went, I want something different next time”
What's ironic about it? That's like saying it's ironic for soldiers to fire their guns while in a trench. They're doing things unto others that they would not have done unto them.
It’s ironic that it’s brave to uncover your face, it’s brave to verify your identity, but these officers’ policy actively avoids the brave choice. Then, we’re supposed to accept that they’re operating in war zones like Portland.
Except law is not a battle field, otherwise lawyers would decide the victors, or guns the outcomes of trials.
Law is supposed to strive for justice, war is as lawless as it can get away with.
This isn't law; it's an incipient police state that would have made Stalin and Honecker jealous.
That's fine, as long as they aren't making anyone remove face coverings. People are allowed to cover their faces in public places. And we can't tell from this biased article whether they had probable cause to stop anyone that they did.
What they have said previously is that they consider someone looking hispanic as probable cause. I don't see any reason to give them the benefit of the doubt here.
Nahhh… hiding the identities of public officials isn’t ok in my book.
It’s not an “ok for me if it’s ok for you” situation.
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Not sure it counts as irony. Whoever is able to sell masking to the public as a luxury item will make bank.
All of the replies to my comment are focusing on the definition of irony.
It's like I'm 12 years old again hearing all my classmates talk about why having spoons when you need a knife isn't "actually" irony.
I think the nitpicking is because the phrasing implies that it's not an intentional choice on the part of the government.
It does not imply that.
Source: me, the person who wrote it.
I don't think his phrasing implies that.
I have a cashmere balaclava from Rick Owens if high fashion masking is what you’re after
Boris Bidjan Saberi also has hoodies with face coverings
Seems like this would be to collect faces of what they consider "dissedents" rather than verify citizenship which can be done much more accurately through a mobile fingerprint reader.
Then again, who needs accuracy when you dissapear people without a warrant.
When are citizens’ fingerprints normally put on file, in the US? Or, for that matter, noncitizens who entered irregularly?
Fingerprint is individual surveillance, face scanning is mass surveillance. I'd expect governments to always favour the latter if given the choice.
In half an hour, Gregory Bovino, who heads some ICE operation in Chicago, is supposed to appear before a Federal judge to be questioned on what ICE did to whom today. Let's see if he shows up.
I wonder who is storing this data, I would bet Palantir. Possibly Oracle too.
Did some research, biometrics specifically for facial ID for DHS/CBP seems to be awarded to NEC and Thales.
https://www.nec.com/en/global/solutions/biometrics/face/neof...
Not Palantir. Their CEO has explicitly said that they don't collect data on US citizens.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-IH7EVrBbQ
Very likely an array of hackers, soon.
I assume the agents are using their own phones. One of their phones is going to be left in a bar and end up on eBay at some point and then the APK can be extracted at least.
what is the database being compared against?
a skin tone chart
I wonder if Oracle is going to become the next IBM with respect to their Nazi past.
With no consequences whatsoever?
Don’t fall for the lie that this is at all about illegal immigration- that is just an excuse for what has become state sponsored KKK style racial terrorism operating completely outside the law. Videos all over the Internet show them violently attacking and terrorizing hispanic looking people with no concern for if they are citizens or not. At the Wilder raid in Idaho they were shooting children with rubber bullets, and zip tying them to watch as they brutally beat their (mostly US citizen) parents in front of them. At the same time you have the administration actively encouraging white immigration from South Africa, while firing all federal immigration judges that were still willing to hear valid asylum claims from brown skinned people.
I want my country, freedom, and civil rights back.
This reality feels like someone had their monkey paw wish granted.
“I wish I could play Wolfenstein in real life.”
In Wolfenstein, the main character shot Nazi soldiers. It was made back when we had shared societal values like fascism is bad. Today, such a game would be called a product of tHe rAdIcAl lEfT.
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I stopped hearing claims that it was about illegal immigration almost instantly after the debate where he claimed “they’re eating the dogs, they’re eating the cats, they’re eating the pets of the people that live there.” It was eerie.
Very much so. There's multiple videos of them standing in Walmart parking lots and as shoppers walk out with their carts, anyone vaguely Hispanic is being questioned. "Where were you born? Are you American?"
Probable cause is out the window. This is, firsthand, Steven Millers White America policy starting to take effect.
Always has been.
Biden's CBP goons stripped me naked, imprisoned me, ran up an ER bill for which I'm still being chased for by debt collectors, and tranported me by prisoner van all over the state, while they were enforcing Biden's (and now continue with Trump) insane war on drugs. I did not have drugs, I am not involved with drugs.
Of course nothing was found, and the allegation was hearsay by an HSI detective that some unnamed dog alerted to an unnamed officer, neither of which I have any idea what they were even referencing.
Scale matters. Once is a bad actor; this is a bad executive branch, with seriously bad supporting turns by the highest court and congress.
Yes, ICE has been a bad actor since the day it was created, which is why "shutdown ICE" has been a thing on the left for a while now. But it's now operating as the private military of Donald Trump and the executive branch on a scale never before seen in America. Its upcoming budget is greater than every other federal law enforcement agency combined. We see videos every day of their gleeful assaults on anyone they like, while their leadership has explicitly stated there will be no repercussions, and that they should be as abusive as they want.
In a way, the 9/11 terrorists have brought much more damage to the USA than they could have ever hoped for.
What do the 9/11 terrorists have to do with the US federal government using federal police to enforce immigration law largely against illegal immigrants from Latin America, decades later? Osama bin Laden had a fairly specific immediate poltical goal, resisting US military influence in Muslim countries and US support of Israel. His broader goals involved revolutionary Islamic fundamentalism in the Muslim countries of the middle east. None of this was related to Latin American immigration to the US, legal or otherwise.
> What do the 9/11 terrorists have to do with the US federal government using federal police to enforce immigration law largely against illegal immigrants from Latin America, decades later?
The centralized security apparatus in the Department of Homeland Security being leverage here exists entirely as a result of the reaction to 9/11.
I wasn't aware that Trump coordinated 9/11 with Bin Laden (through the Saudis?), but at this point it wouldn't really surprise me. (tongue in cheek, of course)
But please let's stop framing recent developments as if they are merely continuations of existing trends. The surveillance state and federal "law" enforcement were definitely out of control well before Trump, and both authoritarian parties share responsibility for that. But it hadn't been being used to launch a frontal assault on domestic civil society. Responsibility for that rests solely on Trump (and his enablers/supporters).
It is absolutely insane that the party who tried on the Libertarian mask less than 20 years ago and rode high on a wave of "don't tread on me" individual liberty is now suddenly ok with masked thugs scanning everyone's faces for their master database of enemies of the state.
It makes more sense when you frame it as "party of shameless self interest and racial stratification acts in shameless self interest while racially stratifying". You can draw a straight line back to even before the US civil war of the anti-federalists using their station to undermine the republic and liberties it stands for.
Nicely said. That’s right up there with Wilhoit’s Law for being a clarifying perspective.
You can expect the party to vote along party lines. The real funny one here is all the Rogan libertarians who made a conscious choice to vote for this.
The generous part of me says this is an example of "you become what you hate". The ungenerous part of me says that all their talk about freedom, liberty, state's rights, etc., has always been a lie.
As someone who grew up in a deep red area full of people with Gadsden flags treading on other people: 100% was always a lie.
> suddenly ok with masked thugs scanning everyone's faces
The point is it is brown people's faces.
They have always been OK with that
It's not insane when you recognize the animus behind both is white nationalism and racism. Tea Party was a response to Obama being President, not so much the taxes as they claim.
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Actually I was very active in criticizing both the Obama and Biden administrations, attending town halls, etc. to criticize their blaming of problems on immigrants. However what they were doing was literally enforcing the immigration laws as they were. That should not in any way be confused with the brutality, cruelty, sadism, criminality, and scale of what is happening now- which has nothing to do with immigration, which was the point of my comment.
It's almost as if deportation of illegal immigrants is not the issue. But current ICE methodologies and disregard for laws are.
Parent comment flagged and removed, but it was basically "Why didn't you complain in the past?".
This is a known tactic of propagandists, implying that you have no right to complain if you didn't complain in the past. Anyone using this method is immediately suspect of not seeking honest discussion. Also, it doesn't work outside of a few social networks, stop trying it everywhere.
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> that is just an excuse for what has become state sponsored KKK style racial terrorism
This sounds like some nonsense white people say to defend their own choices and exclusive clubs. Black Americans have always been under this level of surveillance, and you couldn't pry stop-and-frisk from Democrats. They love it. I've had guns drawn on me for walking down the street at least four times in my life, and at least fifteen times have been searched while multiple cop cars pulled in to surround me. Once, in Arkansas, they all pulled in around me while I was walking down the street with white friends, and their harassment of me was so drawn out and boring that my white friends just left. The cops didn't even look over at them while they left; they weren't interesting.
They don't remember when they were calling Giuliani America's mayor; I do, and I remember it was because he was mean to black people. They don't remember Laquan MacDonald; I do, and I see how that wasn't career ending.
So what you mean is that they're harassing people who are obviously immigrants (or at least English is obviously their second language), and trying to find out if they're legal immigrants. If you mean that, just say it and stop bringing black people into it. The KKK isn't about them. It would be nice if everyone would stop characterizing their problems as them being like black people's problems. They just got here, they're nothing like us. America doesn't even think it owes us anything for centuries of birth to death slavery, it certainly doesn't owe them anything. They don't even like us, they're statistically more racist than the natives (who also don't like us.) They only want to be us when they think they can get something out of it.
Here's the question: pretend that a majority of people want illegal immigrants (not just criminal illegal immigrants, like Trump propaganda makes them all out to be) deported, and that majorities consistently say that in polls, and that they voted for a presidential candidate who has always clearly advocated for that.
How exactly can they do it if every Democratic-run state and city refuses to comply? How can the democratic will of citizens be carried out? If we're not going to do democracy anymore, do we have a country at all? What benefit is there to citizenship? An illegal immigrant erases their past, how can a citizen do the same? Why can't citizens drive, work, get loans from banks, or even in extreme cases vote and hold office without identifying themselves?
If you're going to answer all these questions with "Screw you!" do you see how you're ushering in a police state with popular support? How it's inevitable? And they'll just take off and go home, while we have to live in it because we don't have anywhere else to go.
Western elites are stupider than they have ever been. They're just going to usher in nativist demagogues who will administer the totalitarian states they've built, and suffer no consequences. They'll be richer than they ever were, and having stupid taste arguments about their consumption while what they've ushered in is immiserating the vast majority of people. Feudalism is coming, and the landlords and their children are cosplaying as workers.
“How exactly can they do it if every Democratic-run state and city refuses to comply? How can the democratic will of citizens be carried out?”
If a candidate makes campaign promises that do not work in the framework of our constitution or civil rights that is the candidates problem to figure out, you don’t get to throw away those things because your side won and they make your job hard, that is not how this is supposed to work.
What I wrote isn’t about democrats vs republicans- it’s about calling out terrorism from white supremacists for what it is- the fact that plenty of democrats are also extremely racist does not change what is actually happening here. They are not selective in only targeting black people- they have expanded that to include middle eastern, hispanic, and LGTBQ people simply because more of them are now visible in this country, with no reduction in their hatred and targeting of black people. We’re talking about the same groups of people doing the same things, now with a BUFF and a tactical vest instead of a white hood. Trump was raised in a KKK household, his dad was arrested at a KKK rally, and both he and his dad were sued and lost for racial discrimination in housing against black people and then ignored the rulings and continued the discrimination. He launched his political career by stoking hatred for a black president. His core supporters are a group of people that never accepted that they lost the civil war, and have been able to continually derail the reconstruction and the civil rights movement to this day. They are putting back up confederate pro slavery statues, and flying confederate flags. The KKK itself is mostly organizationally defunct, but these people are not simply “like the KKK,” they are literally the same people. However, for the first time in US history, they now have essentially complete control over the federal government.
Wow this is going downhill fast. I don't have access to the article but I'm assuming this is what Palantir is all about right? Or are we not quite there yet, is this the CBP face scanning they have at border crossings too?
It's about this app, they won't tell anyone who developed it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_Fortify.
Anti-surveillance makeup anyone?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_vision_dazzle
I wonder if this is a portend to an American social credit score, like where China uses facial recognition to identify criminals at concerts[1], and jaywalkers, etc. which severely impacts a person's ability to get a job, housing, etc.
I can't help but assume this is already being used at retail establishments, but now it could be tied into law enforcement databases, and .. communicate..
Those systems depend on enforcement. If a private system keeps score and gate keeps you usually have alternatives (utilities excluded), if it’s the gov and they decide to enforce it, then things get dire…
But what if Target security cooperates with the government, and they share capabilities, so that a facial recognition inside of a Target location would notify law enforcement who also has an interest in that person? In such a scenario.. Target would freely give its data but not necessarily acting an agent of the government.
People need to work to reverse the Bush and Obama initiated and then continued practice (setting precedent) of bypassing direct surveillance by buying data from data brokers. The Biden and Trump admins just continue this practice. That’s where people need to reverse the practice. I mean you had the FBI and probably others wiretapping Congress folks so… it’s like they don’t care.
Or we need to focus on making data brokers illegal, period. Taking a page from the GDPR would be a good start. As long as the surveillance databases continue to exist, they will be juicy targets for anyone attracted to the power. And not just for the de jure government, but also plenty of "private" businesses that adopt them nearly in lockstep. If you get blackballed in the one used by say Target, it's not like Walmart is going to make it a point of competition to serve the small fraction of people who would be good customers but for getting tripped up by Target. Rather they will all use the same databases, shutting you off from most commerce. That's effectively creating a de facto government, independent of any de jure government adoption.
"American" "social" credit scores were instituted long ago. Distracting from this was the whole reason the media added the word "social" to the term - to other the idea as something that happens over there, never here.
That was the carrot. This new development is the stick.
Life in the US is turning like one of its sci-fi movies. Now it's playing the first half where the bad suppress the good, before the reverse will happen for a happy ending.
By saying such I might come up as part of The Resistance in the future, like German people that resisted the Nazis are considered heroes after the war.
When I saw them do iris scanning during Iraq War I instantly knew that was coming to US police sooner or later, I guess this is the new easier method
The crazy thing is though these people don't even have an identifying badge number and their license plates are often fake, zero repercussions for anything and they know it
Imagine by 2028 what's going down if this is still the first year
I presume this is powered by data collected by the face scanners at airports when you go thru security?
I wonder how soon till the automated license plate reader cameras everywhere start doing this.
My understanding is that the only thing keeping this from happening is that the data is far more valuable for traffic monitoring than law enforcement. As a trivial example, these cameras can already determine is a vehicle is speeding based on its number plate sightings between any two cameras. They can hence start issuing tickets, no radar or police needed.
However, they've not gone down this path because they are (rightfully) concerned that there would be an instantaneous and severe backlash that could lead to those cameras being banned entirely, which would cripple traffic control.
Don't we have the right to "face your accuser" ie getting automatic tickets from the government is illegal because you don't have an accuser.
The accuser is the state issuing the ticket.
And you do have the right to contest the ticket in court, before a judge.
Unless you have the free time, and some evidence that doesn't involve the fringe around the courtroom's flag, you're probably better off just paying the ticket.
This and ezpass readers are already everywhere in cities (even outside toll points) to track movement.
For today's ten thousand https://deflock.me
I'm sure it's already happening!
"You're being pulled over because this licence plate is not registered with a valid REAL ID"
If only it was this bad. REAL ID only proves you were at one point allowed to be here. It doesn't prove you're allowed to be here right now (which can change arbitrarily and at any time apparently)
lol - I made something to do the same to ICE. Stores each ICE agent as a visual embedding and creates a database of all sighted agents.
https://www.realtimefascism.com/ice-sight
thanks awesome. thank you for making this.
Can you go into any detail on what technologies you used? Is there enough differentiating data in their attire to actually match agents? None of them are showing their faces so I wonder how many false positives would occur
yes! although the techniques aren't perfect.
I'm using a YOLO-WORLD-XL object detection model. Lets me detect objects using text. This is the initial filter that scans for agents - once those are detected and outlined with bounding boxes the entire image and each cropped bounding box are then sent to chatgpt to confirm if the image looks legit. Once image passes those checks - I create image embeddings of each agent using CLIP and those are stored in a vector DB, and each agent is then compared to the DB and matched.
The matching system isn't perfect - but I think good enough to get the point across and can be easily tuned with more data! Happy to take suggestions here - I just spun this up over the weekend
What's your policy for complying with the patchwork of national biometrics laws?
Ignore them? Operate outside of US reach. The tubes are global.
EDIT: Legally, you have no right to privacy in public, if your photo is captured in public (US centric), broadly speaking. You have the right to record law enforcement officers exercising their official duties in public.
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2025/02/yes-you-have-right-fil...
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2023/08/federal-judge-upholds-...
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2023/02/fourth-circuit-individ...
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2022/07/victory-another-court-...
Taking someone's photo is different than storing their biometrics. The latter would violate laws such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biometric_Information_Privacy_...
So avoid being subject to the US jurisdiction, if applicable. Do not store data or operate the system from within the US, or any country within US reach.
https://owasp.org/www-community/Threat_Modeling_Process
No biometrics collected. It's only scanning bodys, clothes and details on gear.
If you haven’t seen it this video is a dystopian display of this tech in action: https://www.reddit.com/r/EyesOnIce/comments/1ogm1qk/ice_agen...
I am struggling a bit personally with how to grapple with the fact that the career I have chosen has ended up bolstering all the horrible inclinations of those in power. I think we need some kind of tech workers collective and some version of the hippocratic oath to start pushing back against this bullshit.
I think a lot of tech needs to go through that struggle.
From the perspective of a long career in infosec, what’s occurring now was enabled a longtime ago by broad-based industry consensus. Concerns then, which == awful stuff occurring now, were robustly dismissed by many many many devs with s/strong viewpoints/paychecks.
The only silver lining I can see is we’re taking our medicine now, but there’s a lot more to go through still, on the back of many significant tech capabilities.
For example, Flock was kept out of many cities, but Amazon was not, Flock just signed a data sharing deal with Ring. That’s a no-nonsense, nationwide, warrantless vehicular and pedestrian tracking network mechanism.
Not great, Bob! But RSUs for building it all sure was great.
It's true now as in the past. Technology or science aren't inherently good or bad, just a matter of how you use it. Personally I enjoyed much more working on medical devices at a university than typical commercial software, simply because there's an ethical component to that software that was quite fulfilling.
How certain are we that the photos being taken are going to a Palantir database?
Asking because the FBI has been assembling biometrics databases since the mid-20th century and providing access to other law enforcement agencies since the 1990s.
Physicists have Pugwash, which started after they saw the culmination of their decades of work in the actual evaporation of two entire cities.
Could we please not criticize the administration on Hacker News? Hacker News is not the place for ideological criticism of the surveillance state. Hacker News is meant to be a safe space for the hacker ethos of maximizing money, and this administration has been good for Silicon Valley, as judged by our leaders such as Elon Musk, Peter Thiel, and Marc Andreessen.
You almost had me for a moment.
Regarding the specific issue of using facial recognition apps to identify criminals, and using those apps as justification for detention/arrest - has this ever been challenged in court? I know there's caselaw that supports using cameras in public, but I'm wondering about the apps that are used to "recognize", and then the decision to detain/arrest based on those apps. If I'm a lawyer challenging this, I wanna see the source code for the app; I want verification that the app is working as it's intended, the false positive/negative rate, and that there's no way for someone to "put their thumb on the scale" to get a desired outcome, etc. I'm also gonna want access to the phone that was used to take the picture(s).
"Pick up that can."
"I'm behind on my beatings."
Don't tread on me. ... Tread on them, just not me.
Ask Pastor Niemöller how well that's likely to work out.
First they came for the Communists And I did not speak out Because I was not a Communist Then they came for the Socialists And I did not speak out Because I was not a Socialist Then they came for the trade unionists And I did not speak out Because I was not a trade unionist Then they came for the Jews And I did not speak out Because I was not a Jew Then they came for me And there was no one left To speak out for me
Pastor Niemöller
Fascism is not just knocking at the door, it’s walking into the house. Some want it to come in, and the rest aren’t doing enough to push it back out.
I wonder why people downvote. Many western countries now couldn't be more obviously fascist. State responsibilities are being offloaded to multinational corporations, de facto private policing is around the corner, surveillance (digital ID tracking your movements and what you talk about, chat controls and whatnot). It's creeping in and people pretend it's not happening.
I’ve gone from thinking people are oblivious to thinking that people are willing to sacrifice a lot (democracy, individual liberties, food safety, etc.) out of fear, selfishness, and greed. It is surprising with the HN crowd though given how much less innovation and entrepreneurship there is under fascism.
People downvote because an oligarchy controlled by big tech is their idea of a wet dream.
Half of the user base of HN is “founders” excited at the idea that morals, values, and laws will no longer matter.
Temporarily embarrassed founders.
Many western countries now couldn't be more obviously fascist.
Which ones? This isn't an "I'm just asking" attack, I genuinely want to know which ones you think are obviously fascist.
US, UK, most of the EU.
I mean they are flashbanging houses, teargassing residential neighborhoods, dragging parents away from their screaming children outside of elementary schools, shooting people, all in chicago right now. The things you mention were serious problems we needed to address 5, 10, 20 years ago. We did not and now we have a very different problem to solve. We will still have to address those things but we have to deal with this first.
All, I recommend you familiarize yourself with relevant state laws regarding your protections when assisting folks that are in immediate danger, e.g.: https://oregon.public.law/statutes/ors_161.200
I'm not a lawyer. So, if you have counsel on retainer and can stomach the bill, get clarity there first. But know that many states have such protections on the books.
The veil of immunity for DHS agents may soon be pierced. Apathy and ignorance are no longer acceptable for this situation.
You can be arrested and charged with a federal criminal law, 18 USC 111 "assaulting, resisting, or impeding certain officers or employees." The judge wont entertain your arguments about state law.
Fines and up to 8 years in a federal prison, 20 years if you use a deadly or dangerous weapon or actually inflict injury. You can get up to 15% off for good behavior, there is no parole.
Good points! Quite the cost / benefit analysis.
One on hand, I'd really love to punch a neo-nazi to interrupt them disappearing people to concentration camps. On the other, ooooh scary federal charges.
Sort of. You have to look up if your state has "necessity/choice-of-evils” defense and the standard defense-of-others rule - and what scopes it has.
I'll tell you this much, most judges will regard a circumstance for you to exert force against a peace officer - seeming or actual - as an extralegal action, and will very rarely affirm it as a protected action from the books. And even if you beat such a case, it ruins your life in the process. Their qualified immunity will remain longer than you can remain solvent.
Asking a "kid" for his ID? Kids aren't supposed to have IDs, much less carry them around. I'm confused as to what the kid was supposed to provide.
The lack of safeguarding is shocking. Kids should not be hassled at all much less strip searched without their parents.
Any shred of trust that was left in our federal agencies is going straight down the drain.
the people who run YC and Hacker News have Peter Thiel's phone number.
that's all I'm saying
They would call and say what? "Go home you crazy weaponized narcissist, you're drunk on power and delusions of techo authoritarianism." If you're challenging someone who can hurt you, you should not approach until you are highly confident you are going to win, whatever that looks like.
I hope the folks mentioned are, and continue to remain, somewhere safe while this plays out.
They're too busy writing brave, orthodoxy-challenging essays about wokeness...
I think Family guy had a gag about this...
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/family-guy-skin-color-chart
that has nothing to do with this
SCOTUS has endorsed using "apparent ethnicity" as grounds for a stop:
https://www.scotusblog.com/2025/09/justice-brett-kavanaugh-a...
Bovino says they do profile people on how they look:
> “Then, obviously, the particular characteristics of an individual, how they look. How do they look compared to, say, you?” he said to the reporter, a tall, middle-aged man of Anglo descent.
https://www.wbez.org/immigration/2025/09/29/feds-march-into-...
We're calling them Kavanaugh Stops. Legalized racial profiling.
Absolutely. I'm a legal immigrant, but delays in processing and other things when I had to adjust status after divorcing from my US citizen wife (I moved here on a K-1 fiance visa) had me involving an immigration attorney, who made the comment, "I hate saying this, but it's true. You're the right color, and with where you're coming from (Australia), nobody cares about checking up on you."
All those illegal Polish immigrants in Chicagoland (of which there are many) seem to be doing just fine.
Of course it has. They're checking people that look "foreign".
That's what they say, but of course they would say that.
It's like that old Groucho joke: Who are you going to believe? Me, or your lyin' eyes?
They don't even always say that:
https://www.wbez.org/immigration/2025/09/29/feds-march-into-...
> “Then, obviously, the particular characteristics of an individual, how they look. How do they look compared to, say, you?” he said to the reporter, a tall, middle-aged man of Anglo descent.
Discussion's over everyone! Some random user said that had nothing to do with this. He didn't elaborate, but you can't argue with that logic.
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Most people arrested by ICE now have no criminal record.
Illegal immigrants are criminals by definition.
Illegal immigration is a civil matter. Read more.
Thus nobody is arrested over immigration but is held in an administrative detention.
Immigration is a civil matter, not a criminal matter.
https://www.alllaw.com/articles/nolo/us-immigration/crime-en... disagrees.
In those cases yes, but ICE is disappearing people who have entered legally and are awaiting a CIVIL immigration hearing on status changes, etc. The cases you reference are a small minority of those being detained and deported.
Can you evidence any of that?
75% of ICE detainees have no criminal convictions per ICEs own stats, however they conflate "immigration offenses" like filing errors with illegal entry so its impossible to tell from their own statistics to answer your question.
I might also add that, like it or not, asylum claims are a positive defense to illegal entry under US law and you can ONLY claim asylum upon US soil.
ICE has extreme arrest quotas now and are routinely exceeding their authority and violating the due process rights of of immigrants in thr US to meet those quotas.
> 75% of ICE detainees have no criminal convictions
1. Can you cite this?
2. I assume you mean, for things other than the putative illegal entry itself. Of course, that would still have to be proven, but it is still potentially a criminal matter. Fining people who are legally not entitled to be in the country, does not remedy the fact of them being in the country without legal entitlement.
> however they conflate "immigration offenses" like filing errors with illegal entry
How is this a conflation?
> I work in immigration law and can tell you that nearly all of the people we represent
The selection bias is clear; they're hiring legal representation because they have a case (and because they can afford to).
> ICE has extreme arrest quotas
Can you evidence this?
> violating the due process rights of of immigrants in thr US
What exactly do you consider that these rights consist of, and how are they being violated? Can you evidence this?
That is a lie. It is a criminal offence to enter the US illegally or to overstay.
It is not a lie, immigration, is primarily a civil issue with civil enforcement. You don't get a lawyer, you don't get your case heard in Title III courts. There are a few things that are capital C crimes related to immigration, but the bulk of the current enforcement is related it civil immigration matters.
Goalpost shifting. Now it is "primarily" a civil issue you say.
Yet the relevant part of it here is the crimes: people illegally entering or illegally overstaying, which are crimes. Trying to distract from that by talking something else is disingenuous.
75% of ICE detainees have no criminal convictions, per their own stats. This isn't goalpost shifting.
Immigration is a civil issue in the US, full stop. Immigration courts are administrative courts, not Title III criminal courts.
You are obviously a brand new bot account so I will mute you and move on.
And what of the non-criminals? Are you glad that the government doesnt seem to care it is wantonly violating their rights?
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> invasion
Don't think this meets either the common or legal definition of "invasion"
>you decided it was "racist" and threw a fit every time anyone suggested it was a problem.
I decided nothing, buddy.
>If you hadn't let it become an issue,
Interesting, because the last time it was about to be taken up by congress, DJT said not to do anything about it, for political advantage. Neither side has its hands clean here.
> it wouldn't require this response.
This is the only possible response? How unimaginitive.
It meets the common definition ie. the definition.
You is a plural pronoun.
I don't care at all what Donald Trump thinks about it or does or says. It is irrelevant to the issue at hand: should the law be enforced even if doing so is ugly? Yes.
I can't help but blame this on the performative lack of cooperation of every Democratic Party run city and state on illegal immigration (but mostly, the wealthy constituency that supports it.) I wish I could blame the administration actually doing it, but the fact is that both parties would happily usher in this level of surveillance, and Democrats are handing Republicans an excuse to do it over a nonsense issue that didn't exist for them before they were wielding it against Trump during his first term.
If anything, this is a cooperation between the two most powerful and destructive political parties on the planet to turn the US into a police state trying to conquer the planet.
There is no right for illegal immigrants to stay in the US, it hurts working people, and the rights that are being claimed by illegal immigrants are real but purely being used in a dilatory manner. The problem has also been exacerbated in a predictable manner by bipartisan attacks on their home countries, followed by legal encouragement for them to come here.
Right now, Trump is driving more Venezuelans to the US while pretending that he's trying to keep them away, by keeping the US acting as a thief in Venezuela. War for theft. They'll be here just in time for the Democrats to throw the doors open again, we'll have all the cheap, leverage-less labor back, and now facial recognition cameras everywhere. Bipartisanship!
'Katz v. United States' was quite clear - you have no expectation of privacy in public. Anyone may photograph you and use said photos. Do I like it? No. But that is the current caselaw in USA.
"What a person knowingly exposes to the public [...] is not a subject of Fourth Amendment protection." - Justice Potter in 'Katz v. United States'
They legally can take a photo of you, sure.
But they aren't just taking a photo from across the street. They are also:
1. "briefly" detaining you to make you face a camera and take of hats etc for the app to get a good enough shot.
2. arresting you if it doesn't correctly identify you
3. using protected characteristics to decide who needs to get scanned.
Taking photo is one thing, storing biometrics to compare against without consent is quite another
Illinois has the Biometric Information Privacy Act.
https://www.ilga.gov/Legislation/ILCS/Articles?ActID=3004&Ch...
Fair. If anything is stored, it likely would be illegal in some states.
Frustratingly, the BIPA might exclude these offensive actions. It was really designed to protect customers from bad businesses. This sort of action probably didn't factor into it.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45750955
From the statute: "A private entity does not include a State or local government agency."
If they ignore all other forms of evidence that you're a citizen, that goes beyond privacy in a public space
This ^^^ What is the point of having an ID in the first place, if they can just ignore it?
This entire encounter is fake.
Minors don't have biometrics. They are not obligated to have any sort of ID, especially citizens. What would scanning biometrics do? It's absolutely useless and ICE would know this.
This is guaranteed to be an entirely made-up situation.
Also, what in the fuck would CBP be doing in Chicago? It's a complete lie.
> Minors don't have biometrics.
Minors do, in fact, have biometrics. Identification with them may be less reliable for some kinds of biometrics, but... reliability isn’t a hallmark of the current regimes “immigration enforcement” mechanisms.
> They are not obligated to have any sort of ID, especially citizens.
This is also true of adults, who are not obligated to have or carry ID if they are citizens (immigrants, both minors and adults, are a different story, are required to have ID, and are required to have biometrics taken unless they are under 14.)
Obviously, it can’t rule out citizens (though it could compare to databases available to the feds, which I would assume state ID databases are), since not all citizens will have biometrics of any kind, or even ID photos on file, but if they have presumed that the targets are immigrants, then scanning can be used to compare to records of documented immigrants, reinforcing (note I do not say justiying) the conclusion tha they are illegally present if it fails to match.
They can also be used to build intelligence databases of contacts even if not used to support immediate detention.
> Also, what in the fuck would CBP be doing in Chicago?
CBP, and more specifically Border Patrol, the main enforcement agency within CBP, is everywhere the Administration’s immhration crackdown is beig executed, and much of the most violent “immigration enforcement” attributed to “ICE” is actually Border Patrol, not ICE.
This entire encounter is fake.
What are you talking about? CBP has been in Illinois for weeks. Greg Bovino, their commander, has been hauled before a judge this week to testify about how CBP (and he, personally) have violated the judge's TRO against unjustified use of tear gas [0].
This is very basic factual stuff that's in the news every day. How do you not know this is going on?
[0] https://abc7chicago.com/post/ice-chicago-news-border-patrol-...
Do people think they are clever and can have defacto open borders? Maybe stop the goon squads and enforce at the employer level though it would probably work too well…
Most of these people have SSNs and work permits. We let them in and let them work legally and now have suddenly changed our collective mind and are violently letting them know. It's absurd.
They can be trivially defeated with a 6 dollar product[1].
1. https://www.amazon.com/Custom-Personalized-Print-Bandana-Reu...
Do... do you think ICE agents would come up to you and just scan the mask you clearly have pulled over your head?
Worse, scanning the mask would guarantee no match to a citizen's face.
https://xkcd.com/1105/