Germany already has a grassroots, volunteer-run network of free WiFi hotspots called Freifunk [1], which has pretty decent coverage in a lot of the larger cities. I'm sure similar initiatives exist in other EU countries.
Does Wifi4EU leverage this in any way? Nope, there is no way for volunteer-run networks to get included in the app [2]. Instead, it looks like municipalities have to apply for Wifi4EU funding (which they currently can't because "The next call has not been announced."), set up brand new hotspots themselves, and only then are eligible for inclusion in the app's database. [3]
I once lived in the area where one of the Freifunk core contributors lives (Mannheim / Heidelberg / Karlsruhe / Rhein-Neckar Region). For years we also talked to the municipalities and the mayors of towns around the area, especially the smaller ones that had troubles getting their internet connections and bandwidths beyond 768kBit/s because they were ignored by ISPs and are kind of the best case for mesh networks.
But, as the saying goes, with the incompetent conservatives (CDU) there's no limit on how they waste tax money. If there is a friend of them doing something for more expensive, it's getting bought; because cheaper means always worse, right? Right?
For example, in a small town with around 20k citizens, they spend more than 50k EUR per year for two Wi-Fi spots near the local library, and those are "maintained" by an energy company. They also had to buy those access points for an initial sum of 20k EUR per access point, because they were very special and integrated in the street lights (not kidding you).
Network speeds are less than 10Mbit/s. For that amount of money per year, you could've easily gotten a fibre connection to the library building (which also has less than 10Mbit/s internet connection, so they are kinda fucked once more than 5 people use the internet there).
The moral of the story is somewhat that it's so ridiculous how incompetent politicians are when it comes to tech.
I'm kind of glad that this is an EU-driven project that's delegated top-down, because that means those incompetent politicians have no excuse to buy overly expensive tech stuff from their golf buddies anymore.
Yet users will use whatever is available. E.g. people routinely send SMS with sensitive data, even though SMS is probably the least trustworthy channel.
They can only help that by securing the equipment and networks. Telling public "don't trust these because foreign hackers" is not going to do much.
Volunteer-run infrastructure is fine, but you cannot rely on it. Can you really blame a volunteer if things break? No. They will hopefully fix it on they own time and dime, and that's good.
Volunteer-managed infrastructure is a courtesy. The fact that it's been reliable so far is no indicator of future reliability.
EU-driven initiative on the other hand supplies funds (15'000 euros, for proper hardware, maintenance and replacement parts) and uniformity: users in spain will have to go through the same procedures and configurations whether they are in italy, spain, germany, france or any other eu member state (does freifunk does the same?)
I don't think it would've been very difficult to include volunteer networks in the database and allow users the option to fall back on them if an EU-funded network is not available (including a warning about potential eavesdropping on unencrypted communications).
Unpopular view perhaps, but public WiFi seems obsolete except for where cell signal can’t reach. 5G is usually faster and somewhat more secure than connecting to access points.
Technically this is the case, but due to operator pricing wifi is is still good option. 5G comes with the roaming charges (not so much problem within EU, although there are data caps) and at least local operators here in Finland don't really have good 5G packages for people with multiple devices.
They will charge you for roaming if you're clearly abusing the system (ie, not living in the place you bought the SIM). How long that takes to happen depends on the individual provider - if they didn't then everyone would predictably just use cheaper eastern Europe SIMs.
Agree but despite the roaming at times it can be way cheaper. For instance paying for BElgium operator (not necessarily the cheapest) you can buy an unlimited 5G (limited to 90G in BE without throttle) which in roaming is 31G costing 25 Eur.
I’ve also seen some cheaper providers than this in DE but they limit 5G to 50mbps :(
> The budget of the WiFi4EU initiative is EUR 120 million between 2018 and 2020.
Looks like this is not a new thing, it would be nice to have a more unified experience across the EU (Just like https://eduroam.org), but I wonder if it would be more useful to have a unified minimum data cap on mobile networks instead of building out WiFi coverage across cities?
Wi-Fi has the advantage of being usable on devices without a cell modem as well, such as most laptops, e-readers etc.
That said, now that many phones support dual-SIM, I do wish there was a low-friction way to connect to a local 5G network without downloading an eSIM profile and all that.
I’m currently charging my phone from my laptop. And tethering off my phone as the wifi on Amtrak (which could be great if it had a starlink dish on the top) is awful and keeps going back to unauthorised.
I haven’t really had much signal problem and I’m not travelling through particularly built up areas (on the New York to Miami train, nearing the GA/FL border)
That definitely works, but it requires a cable, balancing two devices on a potentially small seatback tray etc.
On most trains I've traveled on, Wi-Fi (if available) also works much better since the antenna for that is usually on top of the train, and windows are sometimes coated with a metallic paint to keep out solar radiation.
Althea Networks provide openwrt firmware which allows to buy/sell data by usage(micro transaction) on the fly, some cryptocurrency is/was involved which make some sense if you think about it(This and Filecoin might be the only projects which it makes sense IMHO). Wider adoption could incentivize the pricing to be as close to commodity.
It's quite likely that some of these networks already had existing infrastructure used for something else (e.g. local free Wi-Fi under a different SSID, or a network used for some other non-public purpose), in which case 80 hotspots (probably meaning single access points?) would really not be unusual.
I've seen this happen in some airports or even entire cities that broadcast the Eduroam SSID as well. Most curiously, I've seen at least one drink vending machine in Japan broadcasting functional Eduroam.
Looking at a few spots around me, it seems it includes some hotspots in public buildings and museums and so on. So on the map it shows e.g. 30 hotspots in a museum, which seems OK as you probably need that many for coverage indoors with the amount of people typically there.
How does this mesh with 5G? I don't use it (old phone) but I understood 5G is meant to offer similar bandwidth - and in fact somehow WiFi can be a part of a 5G network (maybe this bit I'm getting wrong...).
5G WiFi and 5G the collection of cell phone technology standards have practically nothing in common other than they're both collection of RF signaling standards. 5G for cell phones means the 5th generation of standards, 5G for WiFi is meaning WiFi networks operating around 5GHz (5.15–5.85 GHz). Which 5Ghz WiFi is quite a ways away RF-wise from the normal 2.4GHz.
Just to make things confusing, there's also WiFi 5 (previously known as 802.11ac) which is a collection of WiFi standards. You can operate WiFi 5 on 5GHz. But you could also operate WiFi 4 (previously known as 802.11n) on 5GHz or 2.4GHz. WiFi 6 operates on 2.4GHz or 5GHz, and 6E operates on 2.4GHz, 5GHz, and 6GHz. WiFi 7 and 8 operate on 2.4, 5, and 6GHz.
Oh yes, I was aware there is WiFi at 5GHz, also called 5G. Rather, I understood that the behemoth that is "5G mobile internet" somehow incorporates wifi too. But maybe I just got myself confused there.
The band for 6GHz WiFi channels does dip a bit into 7GHz (up to 7125MHz) frequencies, but it's still normally called operating in 6GHz mode. You wouldn't normally say you're operating a 7G WiFi network, despite there being two 40MHz channels which exist entirely above 7000MHz
Also, those channels aren't allowed in all countries. You can't use those freqencies in EU countries, Japan, Russia, and more.
Does Openroaming require users to create an account? I'm not sure if this does.
At a first glance, Openroaming also seems to use "Passpoint"/WPA Enterprise, which not nearly all devices support, so at least a backup SSID makes sense.
There is some difference in included data packages between home and EU-roaming, but, yeah, it feels like it's about 10 years late. FWIF, 10 years ago I saw much more of free public WiFi. One part why it changed surely is security reasons, the other is just that people don't really need it that much, I think. I definitely don't rely on it that much (I do sometimes, because far cellular networks are not always available).
IDK, maybe I would feel different if I used laptop on the go more, but I doubt it. Having a mobile phone seems to cover it now.
For 7EUR/month I have 30GB of data transfer + unlimited SMS and calls in my my country + ~8GB of data in whole EU, every month. There is no cheaper option. Who needs public Wi-Fi?
EU should increase the competitiveness of communication operators and not finance such stupid ideas. Also map in that app is online only. So you need internet access to get internet access...
From the site:
"Privacy-friendly with no tracking:
Your privacy is important. The WiFi4EU app ensures a private online experience with no tracking or data collection."
This app can only be installed via the GOOGLE/APPLE app stores, so this is a lie.
NIH as far as the eye can see:
Germany already has a grassroots, volunteer-run network of free WiFi hotspots called Freifunk [1], which has pretty decent coverage in a lot of the larger cities. I'm sure similar initiatives exist in other EU countries.
Does Wifi4EU leverage this in any way? Nope, there is no way for volunteer-run networks to get included in the app [2]. Instead, it looks like municipalities have to apply for Wifi4EU funding (which they currently can't because "The next call has not been announced."), set up brand new hotspots themselves, and only then are eligible for inclusion in the app's database. [3]
[1]: https://freifunk.net/
[2]: https://forum.freifunk.net/t/wifi4eu-vs-freifunk/21686
[3]: https://wifi4eu.ec.europa.eu/
I once lived in the area where one of the Freifunk core contributors lives (Mannheim / Heidelberg / Karlsruhe / Rhein-Neckar Region). For years we also talked to the municipalities and the mayors of towns around the area, especially the smaller ones that had troubles getting their internet connections and bandwidths beyond 768kBit/s because they were ignored by ISPs and are kind of the best case for mesh networks.
But, as the saying goes, with the incompetent conservatives (CDU) there's no limit on how they waste tax money. If there is a friend of them doing something for more expensive, it's getting bought; because cheaper means always worse, right? Right?
For example, in a small town with around 20k citizens, they spend more than 50k EUR per year for two Wi-Fi spots near the local library, and those are "maintained" by an energy company. They also had to buy those access points for an initial sum of 20k EUR per access point, because they were very special and integrated in the street lights (not kidding you).
Network speeds are less than 10Mbit/s. For that amount of money per year, you could've easily gotten a fibre connection to the library building (which also has less than 10Mbit/s internet connection, so they are kinda fucked once more than 5 people use the internet there).
The moral of the story is somewhat that it's so ridiculous how incompetent politicians are when it comes to tech.
I'm kind of glad that this is an EU-driven project that's delegated top-down, because that means those incompetent politicians have no excuse to buy overly expensive tech stuff from their golf buddies anymore.
Some russian and chinese volunteers, just what we need
imho "free wifi" is not to be trusted in any case
Yet users will use whatever is available. E.g. people routinely send SMS with sensitive data, even though SMS is probably the least trustworthy channel.
They can only help that by securing the equipment and networks. Telling public "don't trust these because foreign hackers" is not going to do much.
I think the EU initiative is better.
Volunteer-run infrastructure is fine, but you cannot rely on it. Can you really blame a volunteer if things break? No. They will hopefully fix it on they own time and dime, and that's good.
Volunteer-managed infrastructure is a courtesy. The fact that it's been reliable so far is no indicator of future reliability.
EU-driven initiative on the other hand supplies funds (15'000 euros, for proper hardware, maintenance and replacement parts) and uniformity: users in spain will have to go through the same procedures and configurations whether they are in italy, spain, germany, france or any other eu member state (does freifunk does the same?)
I don't think it would've been very difficult to include volunteer networks in the database and allow users the option to fall back on them if an EU-funded network is not available (including a warning about potential eavesdropping on unencrypted communications).
Can you blame anyone if "official" free WiFi breaks? I doubt it.
Yes? You can blame the government that is funding it with taxes. Thats a much clearer chain of blame and expectation of service.
Unpopular view perhaps, but public WiFi seems obsolete except for where cell signal can’t reach. 5G is usually faster and somewhat more secure than connecting to access points.
Technically this is the case, but due to operator pricing wifi is is still good option. 5G comes with the roaming charges (not so much problem within EU, although there are data caps) and at least local operators here in Finland don't really have good 5G packages for people with multiple devices.
Sure, but neither my laptop nor my switch (the devices I'd reasonably use with Wi-Fi) support 5G or mobile internet at all
Depends where you are. In some European countries (Germany) mobile data is expensive. And mobile coverage even in cities can be kind of shit.
Some unfortunately only refer to DE. Every country adapted their data packages but in Germany, the prices are still vintage :/
Could you not simply get an eSIM from another country with better costs and use free roaming?
Last time I looked into this, there were no (cheap) providers that allow you to permanently reside in another country
They will charge you for roaming if you're clearly abusing the system (ie, not living in the place you bought the SIM). How long that takes to happen depends on the individual provider - if they didn't then everyone would predictably just use cheaper eastern Europe SIMs.
Agree but despite the roaming at times it can be way cheaper. For instance paying for BElgium operator (not necessarily the cheapest) you can buy an unlimited 5G (limited to 90G in BE without throttle) which in roaming is 31G costing 25 Eur.
I’ve also seen some cheaper providers than this in DE but they limit 5G to 50mbps :(
Mobile data in e.g. Germany is much more expensive so free Wi-Fi is always better.
This kind of apps/databases was much more necessary before EU got rid of (most of the) data roaming fees.
This is indeed an old initiative, it's not a new thing.
yeah I have free roaming up until like 20GB in the EU with a 25e per month contract. Removes really any need to use wifi when travelling
Still nice to be able to open your tablet/laptop somewhere and get some work done without worrying about consumption.
> The budget of the WiFi4EU initiative is EUR 120 million between 2018 and 2020.
Looks like this is not a new thing, it would be nice to have a more unified experience across the EU (Just like https://eduroam.org), but I wonder if it would be more useful to have a unified minimum data cap on mobile networks instead of building out WiFi coverage across cities?
Exactly what I thought. eduroam was everywhere. If you setup for their authentication mechanism, you get the funding.
Love eduroam
Wi-Fi has the advantage of being usable on devices without a cell modem as well, such as most laptops, e-readers etc.
That said, now that many phones support dual-SIM, I do wish there was a low-friction way to connect to a local 5G network without downloading an eSIM profile and all that.
Doesn't tethering (laptop <- wifi -> phone <- 5g -> internet) solve that?
Largely, but not everyone has unlimited data (especially not when traveling), and my laptop battery is much larger than my phone's too.
I’m currently charging my phone from my laptop. And tethering off my phone as the wifi on Amtrak (which could be great if it had a starlink dish on the top) is awful and keeps going back to unauthorised.
I haven’t really had much signal problem and I’m not travelling through particularly built up areas (on the New York to Miami train, nearing the GA/FL border)
That definitely works, but it requires a cable, balancing two devices on a potentially small seatback tray etc.
On most trains I've traveled on, Wi-Fi (if available) also works much better since the antenna for that is usually on top of the train, and windows are sometimes coated with a metallic paint to keep out solar radiation.
Althea Networks provide openwrt firmware which allows to buy/sell data by usage(micro transaction) on the fly, some cryptocurrency is/was involved which make some sense if you think about it(This and Filecoin might be the only projects which it makes sense IMHO). Wider adoption could incentivize the pricing to be as close to commodity.
https://www.althea.net/
80 hotspots in a single building, and none in the city. Seems like public funds were well used again.
It's quite likely that some of these networks already had existing infrastructure used for something else (e.g. local free Wi-Fi under a different SSID, or a network used for some other non-public purpose), in which case 80 hotspots (probably meaning single access points?) would really not be unusual.
I've seen this happen in some airports or even entire cities that broadcast the Eduroam SSID as well. Most curiously, I've seen at least one drink vending machine in Japan broadcasting functional Eduroam.
Maybe it's just not adopted in your city yet?
> Connect to over 93 000 hotspots across the EU:
Looking at a few spots around me, it seems it includes some hotspots in public buildings and museums and so on. So on the map it shows e.g. 30 hotspots in a museum, which seems OK as you probably need that many for coverage indoors with the amount of people typically there.
WiFi map: https://wifi4eu.ec.europa.eu/#/list-accesspoints
How does this mesh with 5G? I don't use it (old phone) but I understood 5G is meant to offer similar bandwidth - and in fact somehow WiFi can be a part of a 5G network (maybe this bit I'm getting wrong...).
5G WiFi and 5G the collection of cell phone technology standards have practically nothing in common other than they're both collection of RF signaling standards. 5G for cell phones means the 5th generation of standards, 5G for WiFi is meaning WiFi networks operating around 5GHz (5.15–5.85 GHz). Which 5Ghz WiFi is quite a ways away RF-wise from the normal 2.4GHz.
Just to make things confusing, there's also WiFi 5 (previously known as 802.11ac) which is a collection of WiFi standards. You can operate WiFi 5 on 5GHz. But you could also operate WiFi 4 (previously known as 802.11n) on 5GHz or 2.4GHz. WiFi 6 operates on 2.4GHz or 5GHz, and 6E operates on 2.4GHz, 5GHz, and 6GHz. WiFi 7 and 8 operate on 2.4, 5, and 6GHz.
Oh yes, I was aware there is WiFi at 5GHz, also called 5G. Rather, I understood that the behemoth that is "5G mobile internet" somehow incorporates wifi too. But maybe I just got myself confused there.
Maybe you're thinking of "unlicensed 5G", which can operate in the same spectrum as 5 GHz Wi-Fi?
gpt: WiFi 7E operates on 5, 6, and 7GHz
The band for 6GHz WiFi channels does dip a bit into 7GHz (up to 7125MHz) frequencies, but it's still normally called operating in 6GHz mode. You wouldn't normally say you're operating a 7G WiFi network, despite there being two 40MHz channels which exist entirely above 7000MHz
Also, those channels aren't allowed in all countries. You can't use those freqencies in EU countries, Japan, Russia, and more.
Why are they using yet another SSID? Shouldn't this be compatible with Openroaming? The map in the app does not load while offline, btw.
Does Openroaming require users to create an account? I'm not sure if this does.
At a first glance, Openroaming also seems to use "Passpoint"/WPA Enterprise, which not nearly all devices support, so at least a backup SSID makes sense.
What's the point? 5G is cheap in Europe, with no additional roaming costs between countries.
There is some difference in included data packages between home and EU-roaming, but, yeah, it feels like it's about 10 years late. FWIF, 10 years ago I saw much more of free public WiFi. One part why it changed surely is security reasons, the other is just that people don't really need it that much, I think. I definitely don't rely on it that much (I do sometimes, because far cellular networks are not always available).
IDK, maybe I would feel different if I used laptop on the go more, but I doubt it. Having a mobile phone seems to cover it now.
[dead]
But why?
For 7EUR/month I have 30GB of data transfer + unlimited SMS and calls in my my country + ~8GB of data in whole EU, every month. There is no cheaper option. Who needs public Wi-Fi?
EU should increase the competitiveness of communication operators and not finance such stupid ideas. Also map in that app is online only. So you need internet access to get internet access...
From the site: "Privacy-friendly with no tracking: Your privacy is important. The WiFi4EU app ensures a private online experience with no tracking or data collection." This app can only be installed via the GOOGLE/APPLE app stores, so this is a lie.
Is it not on fDroid? Does it prevent sideloading?